What's so great about free will?

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:40 pm

Assuming such a thing exists (which I personally don't, viewing human thought as complex but deterministic, but whatevs) why is it viewed as a good thing in of itself?

Yes, all things being equal it's better to have it than to not have it--mostly because individuals are usually better at making themselves happy than outside forces--but things like 'we can't brainwash the villain into being good because it would violate his free will' and 'God allows us to muck around because it would violate our free will' seem to be fetishizing the process over the result.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:11 pm

Free will is incoherent.

Therefore, your entire post makes no fucking sense.

Please define free will in a sensible way and then there can be a conversation.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:46 pm

It's about control. If everything is deterministic, then people feel powerless. If they have free will, then they feel more in control. People like to be able to control (or think they can control) things.

It's a comfort issue.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:08 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Assuming such a thing exists (which I personally don't, viewing human thought as complex but deterministic probabilistic, but whatevs) why is it viewed as a good thing in of itself?

The philosophical Free Will argument is fucking pointless, just like the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent god that is completely undetectable and wants you to follow some set of arbitrary rules from an unverifiable source. Whether you believe in it or not has no bearing on how you live your life. There's no way to use the knowledge. You can determine the probabilities that an individual will make certain decisions, and you can calculate average probabilities, but you can't distinguish that from predictable non-randomized choices made via the magic of Free Will.

Free will as self-determination is worth caring about. People should have the ability to do art, cleaning, writing, advertising, science, cooking, driving, teaching, medicine, music, or whatever else they want to do to the best of their abilities. They should be able to love whoever loves them back. They should be able to have reasonable expectations of security, privacy, and personal property.

Severian · Post by **Severian** » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:53 pm

Nobody wants to be a slave, even to probability

Juton · Post by **Juton** » Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:54 pm

The only useful thing most people tend to do with concepts of Free Will is develop systems of morality. If a person is capable of Free Will then they are capable of choosing the lesser of two pleasures, and in general capable of making any choice. From that you get a system of morality similar or the same to what we have now, people are responsible for their own actions, and if they undertake actions that harm society, it is their fault so traditionally we should punish them.

If you subscribe to a wholly deterministic view of human thought then everyone's behaviour is the product of their nature and their nurture. If a person acts against society then it's because they didn't know the harm they where causing or where not conditioned to care. So by extension society can fix most miscreants with rehabilitation so they function how society wants them to.

In the world of pop-philosophy you need a strong belief in Free Will to be a libertarian, otherwise how could you blame people for choosing to be lazy? Communists tend towards Determinism, if everyone is raised properly then every one will want to share, right comrade?

PhoneLobster · Post by **PhoneLobster** » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:46 pm

I think the bigger part of Lago's question wasn't "Fuckin' Free Will, How Does That Work?" but more, "Why should we fight/not impose Tyranny even when it is clearly Benevolent?"

If the state required and permitted you to marry only a single partner of the state's choice, and the state always picked pairs that made each other happywould that be something you should fight?

What if the state just got it right 95% of the time?

What if it were just 10% better at it than you were if left to your own devices?

That seems to be where he was going with the whole brain wash the villain line.

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:41 am

Robby Pants wrote:It's about control. If everything is deterministic, then people feel powerless. If they have free will, then they feel more in control. People like to be able to control (or think they can control) things.

Yes. I don't think a lot of people really understand how important the illusion of control is to their lives, but it has a huge impact on motivation, accomplishment, and mental health.

Some random semi-related thoughts:

[url=http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/nurture-shock/2009/08/29/what-do-children-understand-about-god.html wrote:Newsweek[/url] {OK, God, Parents, Belief}]It is parenting which dictates children's vision of God.

When parents are more supportive of a child's autonomy– giving her a sense that she is control of her own life – a child is more likely to see God as a more forgiving God. God is an authority figure to be respected, but He is less fearsome.

On the other hand, if parents are extremely strict andpunishing – dictating every moment of a child's life – their children are more likely to believe that God is punishing, angry, and powerful. Girlsare more affected by this dynamic than boys, and the way Mom disciplines has more of an affect in this direction than the way Dad does.

I thought this was interesting from a religious perspective, which is why I included more of the quote than necessary, but it was the line, when parents are more supportive of a child's autonomy – giving her a sense that she is control of her own life, that really interested me because there is the implicit idea that supporting a child's autonomy and independence helps create the illusion of free will to begin with.

From a second article...

[url=http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/nurture-shock/2009/09/23/teens-who-feel-more-peer-pressure-turn-out-better-not-worse.html wrote:Newsweek, again[/url] {OK, Peer Pressure, Control}]...A measure of being able to stand up to a friend ─ to maintain autonomy ─ yet do so in an amicable way... preserves the friendship. In simplest terms, if two friends can agree to disagree, that’s an excellent sign. It’s different from merely resisting peer pressure, because many kids who push back against peer pressure do so in a way that severs or threatens the relationship.

How does a child get this secret ability, to agree to disagree with his best friend? To Allen, it isn’t a mystery at all ─ it comes from learning to do the same with parents.

The kid raised to be obedient to his parents wasn’t the one who was most impervious to his peers' influence. Instead, it was the opposite. The kid who blindly obeys his parents also blindly obeys his peers.

“Those kids who say ‘Yes, sir’ to their parents transfer that to their friendship relationships,” Allen says. “The kids who are really pushy and angry with their parents, they’re still more hostile to their friends 10 years later.” They’re all learning a conflict style from their interactions with parents. “The kids who learned to negotiate with their parents ─ not just badger them, but truly negotiate ─ they could use those tactics with their peers, and be effective at it.

And when coupled with this snippet, if nothing else, that sense of autonomy can translate into children who aren't complete pushovers when it comes to dealing with peer pressure.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:07 pm

Maj wrote:
Robby Pants wrote:It's about control. If everything is deterministic, then people feel powerless. If they have free will, then they feel more in control. People like to be able to control (or think they can control) things.
Yes. I don't think a lot of people really understand how important the illusion of control is to their lives, but it has a huge impact on motivation, accomplishment, and mental health.

That reminds me a lot about something my wife read on the Locus of Control. Basically, people tend to have more of an internal locus or external locus.

The people with a high internal locus of control tend to believe that they have more control over thing and results, and they tend to exert that control to better their lives. Basically, they try to go out and be successful.

The people with a high external locus of control tend to believe that external forces have more impact on outcomes, so they tend to value their own efforts less. They tend to sit back, hope, and wait for success to happen.

Of course, you can chicken-and-egg this. Do people have a high internal locus of control because they're already successful, or are they successful because of their internal locus? People do like to take credit for the good things they do and like to not take credit for the bad things.

Maj · Post by **Maj** » Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:25 pm

RobbyPants wrote:Of course, you can chicken-and-egg this. Do people have a high internal locus of control because they're already successful, or are they successful because of their internal locus? People do like to take credit for the good things they do and like to not take credit for the bad things.

Well, if you check out the first quote up there, the reason I posted it was that it indicates that parents who support their children's autonomy return kids who fit your description of an internal locus of control.

So I wouldn't quite chicken-egg it.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:16 pm

Maj wrote:Well, if you check out the first quote up there, the reason I posted it was that it indicates that parents who support their children's autonomy return kids who fit your description of an internal locus of control.

So I wouldn't quite chicken-egg it.

I think the people more likely to chicken-and-egg it would be the ones with a high external locus.

I think it was your second quote that talks about autonomy. Although the first one makes me think of my step mom, who had a very arbitrary and capricious way of dealing with rules...

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What's so great about free will?

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